Well done, gentlemen. The rage you expressed over last week’s XX on XY story, “Why You Should Always Buy Dinner” bodes well for the future of feminism. By dismissing this offensive, 1950s dating relic, it shows you get that independent women don’t need you to “show us you care” with your wallet. Here, a different take: Why you should never pick up the tab.
1. It’s patronizing.
There’s nothing less attractive than a man assuming we’re helpless. Sure, not slamming the door in our faces is appreciated, but acting like we’re too fragile to lay eyes on the perilous restaurant tab? That’s just rude. We’re perfectly capable of splitting the bill, or covering it ourselves.
2. It’s not sexy.
Last week, you heard that women get turned on when you buy them – and their friends – drinks. On the contrary, our smart girlfriends will be more suspicious than impressed by the eager sugar daddy we’ve bagged. What will truly impress is a man charming and intelligent enough to realize women can’t be bought.
3. It’s illuminating.
Not all women are attracted to power (and money). In order to filter out those who are more turned on by your bank statement than by you, suggest going Dutch. The genuine will stick around.
4. It adds insult to injury.
We’ve come a long way since the 1950s, but full-time working Canadian women still make roughly 71 cents for every dollar earned by their male counterparts. Don’t rub it in.
Image courtesy of 27147.
I’ve always found ladies like to or expect to pay for some of evening entertainment
worst article ever
holy bad advice batman. tomorrow’s article should read “why you’re still single and lonely”
Sigh. She still Doesn’t Get It(tm).
Big One) There are no mircomanaging Rules. People are *individuals*. Thus, what two people negotiate may not be The Right Answer for two other people.
2) Treating men as walking wallets is patronising. Don’t whine, after you’ve already done it.
So, how about the gurls pick up the cheque, from time to time, entirely because it is The Right Thing To Do ? Not because there’s one bible for all dates, which there isn’t.
3) Yeah, actually, at least 90% of women ARE attracted to Power & Money. Lying about that isn’t noble.
4)Also, lying about women’s average earnings is also not noble. Please read Warren Farrell’s on point work Why Men Earn More, and learn why that feminist claim is wildly false.
It’s against the Law to pay less than equally for equal work. That women choose to leave the workforce for years at a time, and that, even when they are in, they work fewer hours on average per week than men do, is only evidence that women won’t Man Up to EARN Men’s Full Wages.
Your Choice; Your Consequence. As with dinners, No one rides for free.
And, given that this site is touted (falsely) as being GuyStuff, I remain apalled that such anti men tripe gets published here. Guys, if you want to read REAL pro men stuff, I would recomend Glenn Sack’s site. Chock full of actual facts on such men’s issues and lots more.
Holy way to kill chivalry, Gretchen. You’ve written a totally insulting article, by assuming that every woman has such low self-confidence that they have to constantly prove themselves. Take the chip off your shoulder honey.
No woman has to prove to anyone that she can take care of herself. It’s 2011, that’s a given. Why make it difficult for a guy to do something nice for you? You have completely self-defeating beliefs, and women who follow your line of reasoning should expect to remain single. It sounds like although you would be low-maintenance on a guys wallet, you would be totally high-maintenance emotionally.
@ A Woman. Congratulations, you DO Get It(tm).
What dating and relationships should be is, ‘We like each other, so lets see how great we can make our MUTUAL relationship’. That means BOTH people in it both give and get. Emotionally as well as materially.
The lesson for women is Be Honest. And, understand that he has wants and needs that are as legitimate as yours are.
Why men should never read Daily XY. Judging from this who’s going to pay for dinner saga, my guess is you’re all bitches.
To retract and post an article which opposes your original thought is not very noble. No Alpha male or alpha wanna be will ever let the woman pay. That’s just how it goes. It’s about power and dominance, yet it is also about conveiying control and safety. These psychological games about double thinking who shold pay the bill is such a womanly thought. Reading into every little thing and analyzing intentions using womanly intuition is such a teeneagers game. Alphas will just grab for the bill without even thinking about it. If the woman tries to interecept, to lay some flirtatious game of fighting over the bill, then that wold be the only exception. You need to let her win some small battles, but tha just sets the stage for the next dinner where you will have to choose a venue that doubles in cost as the bill she fought soo hard to win and pay for for flirtatious reasons.
Alphadad: To be clear, XX on XY posts represent the views of the authors, not DailyXY’s official editorial position. This column is a forum for individual women to offer their own perspectives & insights.
My wife and I sorted out this dilemma when we were dating by splitting the bill evenly and agreeing that I was paying for her bill and she was paying for mine.
Alright, I just want to throw this out there. I agree with the statement “there is nothing less attractive that a man assuming we (women) are helpless” but when did picking up the check become an act of war againt women’s equality?
When I was dating, I always took care of the tab, it is how I was raised, right up there with never hit a woman, which I think everyone would agree is still an important value for a man to hold.
When my girlfriend and I became a couple, we also became a team, we both pick up the check or whoever has the money at that particular point in time picks it up. You want to talk about fragile women? How about the type that is so delicate that having a man politely pick up a tab is an insult?
Some women do want to be taken care of and most men worthy of their love want to be the ones to take care of them. This doesn’t mean removing their right to equality or forcing them stay at home with the children, but to offer a feeling of safety.
Studies do show that women make less money than men. Some people think that it is due to time missed from work for maternity leave, others choose to believe that the maternity leave explanation is a copout and that women are unjustly paid less than men simply due to their sex. The truth is that there are so many possible reasons for this statistic that nobody really knows why, I guess what you choose to believe depends on the level of feminism that influences your beliefs.
In any case, there are men out there who will in fact treat a woman like a pet to be caged and taken care of. On the flipside there are women out there who want daimonds around their necks, fast cars and luxurious vacations.
Stick to your beliefs because they define who you are, but make sure the person you are defined as is the person you want to be. Personally, I just want to be a good man who takes responsibility for himself and his loved ones.
Since the dawn of time and the beginning of mankind, women have gravitated towards the best providers. The mating or dating game(whatever you prefer) is an evolved ritual that has drawn out over thousands of years. The bottom line in this scenario is who is asking who out to dinner? If a man asks a woman out to dinner, he should pay for the meal and for the feminists, if a woman asks a man out to dinner, then she pays for the meal. Plain and simple; don’t confuse or complicate things with useless rhetoric and philosophical bullshit. Some people never grasp the art of grace and humility.
See the problem with this is the same. A women telling men how to get women. the premise is wrong. There’s an assumption that you can by doing thus and so get women. I don’t disagree that by manipulating circumstance and situation you can score with women, albeit the women who you score with will be pretty stupid things, it’s hollow and unsatisfing.
You want to get women, and I mean GET women here’s my simple easy to follow tips. 1. Never tell a women what to do. 2. if you like a women, tell her. 3. If you want to get in her pants witihout being vulgar tell her if she say’s no never mention it again. This will drive her nuts. 4. don’t make a fuss, they hate that. That’s it ,it’s not hard
So, if I ask a girl out, I should leave the bill for her? I think there are is a simple rule: Whoever makes the move to ask for the date takes care of it. Simple, effective, clear.
After the first couple dates – if it is something that turns more serious, splitting the bill is something that just makes sense for both parties (most of the time – and remember, we are always speaking in very vague generalities here). As someone else below commented, you can agree that you’re paying their half of the bill.
Wowww… just wow.
You’re saying that actual real men inspired this last column?
Some men they are.
I’m a man, and I’m not rich, but it wouldn’t even cross my mind not to cover the bill on the first date. I’d expect the girl to offer to cover half, but not to actually pay it (unless she insists). But the initiative to pay should always be the man’s. If some men can’t wrap their minds about this cultural rule they shouldn’t be surprised when they get an insincere LJBF (let’s just be friends) via txt.
Guys, there are several things that are flat out wrong about your suggestions. One, with equal pay, comes equal pay OUT. Women have no standing from which to evade paying for dates now. That’s the flip side of Equality(tm). So, lose the idea that men, just because they ARE men, and the Walking Wallets(tm). Next, the ‘asker pays’ model fails to take in the passive aggressiveness of many women. Who will do everything BUT actually ask a guy out. Under that flawed model, that means that the guy will pretty much always be the Walking Wallet(tm).
If using women just for sex is wrong, then using men just for Free Meals(tm) is also wrong, and sexist.
So, why should a guy set up the paradigm of sexist entitlement for the woman from the get go ? That’s the model that gives us 50%+ divorce rates, so we already know that it doesn’t work.
Madness, the repeated attempts to make what doesn’t work, work this one time.
I like picking up the tab. I pick up the tab sometimes when I’m out with just other dudes. Whatever happened to the old days when guys would FIGHT over who got to pick up the tab, even when just out with the guys. Forget whether you’re out with a woman: it’s a disinterested show of generosity. I like doing it, and I LOVE it when it’s done for me. It’s also good business, and makes you seem cool. I remember once I went out with a woman (she invited) and about a dozen other people to a fairly swidsh joint. At the end, she casually picked up the WHOLE tab and when everyone started thanking her profusely, she just said “Shut up, stop it, don’t even think about it.”
And I thought: now that’s cool. Menschy. She bought from me at least a permanent feeling of goodwill, and also for herself an aura of success. You think “she must be doing well.” And of course when you project an aura of success, you tend to get more gigs…
Well at least these comments aren’t as aggressive or hate filled as on the other article, sheesh. I think i’ll throw my two cents in here. There are still traditions/stereotypes left over from a different era. For the most part, this is what the norm is right? Men foot the bill, but it is socially acceptable for a woman to do so, or to split it down the line. Men don’t hit women, but it is more socially acceptable for women to hit men. Men can sleep around as much as they want, and will never expect to be seriously referred to as a slut, whore, skank, loose, easy, etc, but women certainly will be. Adding to that, the more a woman sleeps around, the less worth she’s considered to have. Men don’t want to commit to a promiscuous woman, but by all means will spend a “night of fun” with her, since that’s all she’s good for. He on the other hand, is still perfect husband material, in that regards, and the notches on his belt certainly don’t make him a lesser man. Quite the contrary! “Scoring” is celebrated, if you’re born with a penis, of course. Aren’t gender roles fun? Let’s continue. Men have no say in whether or not a woman can abort both parties child, not by law at least. Fathers have less then a fighting chance to win full custody over their children, if the mother is still in the picture. Women take the mans last name, and their children get the fathers last name. Women are still expected to do most of the housework, regardless of if they have a career or not, I’ve seen plenty of that first hand. Sure, some men will do dishes here and there, but anyone arguing that men do the most? Men do equal? Even if the financial income is relatively even? Can I come and live in your world? I wouldn’t mind looking up a yellow sky, with clouds made out of cotton candy, and raining chocolate chips. Yum! The reality of the matter is, we’ll never be equal. There are double standards and injustices every where you look. Women of course want to be treated like equals, but we all have different ideas of what that means, and it causes a lot of problems. Some, only want equality when it benefits us directly, but aren’t willing to give up anything in return. Some of us still crave to be pampered, spoiled, and ultimately taken care of, in some aspect, but you must still treat us with respect, and see us as your complete and total equals, whatever that means these days. But don’t you dare say anything about it, you sexist pig you! Don’t you know your forefathers chained us to the stove in the day, and to the bed at night?! YOU have to pay for suffering we never experienced! We want our cake, and we wanna eat it. And we want you to pay for it. Then we whine that there aren’t any nice guys left, all the good ones are taken or gay, chivalry is dead. No wonder! We spit in their faces, and it’s a constant cycle of damned if you do, damned if you don’t for men.(Not always) Now, the other hand. Men want to have fun while they’re young, spread their wilds oats, get pussy, get paid, live the life. Some settle down, some act like they do, but all the while have no problem demeaning any woman who chooses to do the same. Then at the end of their nonsense, complain there aren’t any women left with any values. That we’re all out for your money, or we all have our legs spread, and on our knees, or both. That feminism is breaking up the traditional family home, and our society is breeding whores. That even though you’re allowed to have your thrills, we aren’t, just because we’re women, and you’re men. That it’s biological, that it’s DNA, it’s genetics. It’s social, it’s just how it is, and how it will always be, whatever the reason/excuse.(Not always) It’s not fair, in the least, for anybody. I’ve learned, over my short 18 years of this life, that you can only be in control of yourself. People are going to do what they want to do, and you have to weed through the ones that aren’t on your level, whatever your level may be. If you feel that it’s unfair to be expected to pay the bill just because you’re a man, then find someone who agrees with you. If you feel like men should always be the one to pay, it’s just the courteous thing to do, then find someone who agrees with you. If you feel like both men and women should equally pay, spoil each other to dinner, to lunch. You pay for dinner, she pays for dessert. You treat her, she’ll get you next time. If this is you, then find someone who agrees with YOU. Easier said then done, I know, but there really isn’t a right answer for a lot of these issues. There are too many factors, too many opinions and beliefs of how the world should be, and how we should all live our lives. Just mind your own business, don’t worry about what other people are doing with themselves, and just try to be happy. And if you want, find someone to make happy too at the end of the day.
I note that thje false claim that women make 71 cents of what men make is still up. The implication being that women are ‘discriminated’ against.
Wrong. When women leave the work force for years, well, you have to expect that that WILL drop your lifetime earning number. But, the person who did that is… YOU.
I agree with the previous article than with this one, sorry. When I go out with a guy and I am not interested in him, I will go Dutch. It is a complete mood-killer if the guy suggests going Dutch with me when going on a date. I am able to pay for my meal as well as his, but it is important for me to know he is generous and he doesn’t count pennies here.
It is not patronizing nor insulting when the man pays, I think it’s all about the attitude and mannerism of the man towards you really that will tell you whether he respects you or not.
Regarding behaving like a sugar daddy, well, it just says something about the girl doesn’t it to go on a date with a loaded guy in the first place?
Not sure if this is written out of spite or what, this article is far from convincing.
This is rubbish. Splitting the bill is for friends. Going for dinner or drinks isn’t about being friends. It’s about setting the foundations leading to some sort of intimate relationship. A woman looks at a man’s shoes to know two things; Does he have any sense of style, and can he provide for himself. The man paying the bill tells her two things; he is man enough to assert control over the social situation they are in to make it run well, and that he can provide for her as well. Over generosity is socially awkward so if a tool is buying drinks for everyone then he deserves what he gets. But otherwise, of course women can pay, and later on they will. In fact, a man should insist upon it as the relationship progresses, but on the outset, take charge and get it done. The keepers will step up since the are comfortable and confident in being with that guy. They’ll want to contribute and won’t feel insulted or patronized.
I think a man paying for the tab has nothing to do with being condescending or taking feminism to the next level, damn right men should pay for dinner, infact, its the least they could do. Woment spend thousands of dollars annually of cosmetics, clothes and hair etc … all to look good for these cheap bastards. Women, let the man pay, you deserve it!
@Allenah; Women spend those thousands of dollars ON THEMSELVES. Thus, that obligates men not one damn bit.
@Dru; You’re big on what you want to see FROM men, but you ignore that men, as wlel, have legitimate requirements for women. One of which would be, do not treat the man as a walking wallet.
@Yingle; Have you ever considered paying for the date yourself ? If not, then you have no cause to complain about not getting equality. Equality includes forking over the money, too. It’s not just about how much more you can GET.
What a load of selfish and narcissistic women. It’s no wonder that the percentage of men who never marry is now at more than three times the usual rate.
FAIL.
Notice the passive tone from this “modern” woman. Rather than put out a convincing case that women want to pay the bill, she attempts to shame men into doing things her way. You’ve come a long way, baby!
Also note the subtle dig in point #3. Gretchen seems to be arguing that traditionalist women are not genuine. I thought feminism was supposed to be about choice, including the choice to be a housewife.
If you want to see the woman again, pay for dinner for your first date.
Agreed, cdafox. If a guy doesn’t pay for dinner on our first date, I take it as “not interested.” I will offer to pay on the second date. I think it’s nicer if you take turns – it means you’re going to be seeing each other again. A guy going halves on a first date tells me he’s not interested.
Seems like a lose-lose situation no matter which way it goes. I say, bring a fist full of 2 for 1 coupons. Say, “There we go – as long as you have your half covered, I believe we’re good to go.” Ok, I’m kidding. Although I once deliberately did this on a date with a well-known and very hot, gold digger – never cracked a smile either. She probably still doesn’t get what happened: “But ahhh, I look like this.”
On a serious note though, you should quickly review how the date went and gauge it’s monetary value for time spent. If her eyes were darting around the room at every guy with tattooed sleeves or is not someone you ever wanna see again –Dutch courage is totally acceptable. Maybe consider payment based on entertainment value of the date: long-term, present, and short-term. You’ve had time to review the annual reports and executive statement, she’s made her presentation: do you want to invest? Was it painful to get to the end? Did you suspect that she wasn’t interested you from the beginning, but was using your dime to pre-drink before she met her friends up the road? Yeah, my girls tell me everything, lol.
Before I go, I’d like to comment on point 4: pretty cheap “poor me” feminist shot, don’t you think. I can confidently say, that in 75% of the dual-income, married/common law couples that I am associated with, the male partner covers the car and house payments, insurance, utilities, and the majority of the other remaining high ticket overhead costs. Meanwhile, the female partner is free to do with her salary as she wishes – such as an classic RV wallpaper print Louis Vitton bag.
Consider a $2000 house payment. If your calculations are correct, that’s a $1420 profit after the 29% income gap – three of those and I could have a new sport bike that goes over 250km/hr. A year later, I’d still have an awesome bike while my buddy’s wife will be writing “Salvation Army” on a box filled with purses.
One other thing I’d like to point out regarding point 4 is that although women may be paid less, they have much greater hiring potential – even if they’re less qualified. The national wage average doesn’t take into account the GROSS sums of money women make in un-taxed tips working at nightclubs and bars – not only are they making more than men in these roles, but these are very often a second source of income for women. I have gf’s that make $4-600 on a weeknight. I have gf’s that only work weekends and live comfortably. It all adds up fast, especially without taxes.
Ya, obviously this person is NOT a women, and certainly not a feminist. Hey guys rule number one: unless you plan on dating someone as or less attractive then you, listen to this person. Other wise stop being cheap and do the math. It you ask someone out, pay. If you ask someone out and expect them to foot the bill, you’re a dick and will not be getting your calls returned. If a women likes you she will make sure she pays, that a sign she’s into you.
If she’s a feminist, she’s buys her own dinner. She wants equality. Let her have it. But, if she’s a lady, go ahead and buy her dinner.